House of Lords
Parliament

And that's your lot for the evening.

The House of Lords will return tomorrow at 11:00 BST to debate, among other subjects, the Chilcot Inquiry and Russian use of Syrian airspace.

House of Lords
Parliament

As she winds up her speech Baroness Stowell is given a note answering Lord Reid and Forsyth's earlier queries about the Barnett formula and tax.

She reads it out confident in the notion that "if I understand it, the noble lord [Lord Reid] will understand it"

The note reads: "English MPs will not be able to reduce the income tax rate in England without the approval of the whole house."

House of Lords
Parliament

Baroness Stowell "fully" accepts that the house was "absolutely clear" that it wanted to see a joint committee of both houses to look at the implications of EVEL.

However, she says, the government was equally clear about not wanting to delay the implementation of English votes for English laws.

She also points out that a number of other committees in the Commons and Lords are already looking at the issue.

House of Lords
Parliament

Lord Reid and Lord Forsyth ask the Leader of the House how the government will resolve the issue of the Barnett formula drawing particular attention to the fact that English decisions on tax would have an affect on the devolved nations without giving devolved nations a say. 

Baroness Stowell suggests the issue "extends beyond her knowledge" and promises the peers she will get back to them. 

House of Lords
Parliament

Liberal Democrat Lord Purvis of Tweed notes that it is two years to the week since he became a peer and this is the first time he has seen "a government debate which has not had a single member of the governing party speak in support of the government's position."

House of Lords
Parliament

Shadow Deputy Leader of the House, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath pays tribute to the Leader of the House: "She does not have an easy job."

However he goes on to criticise Baroness Stowell for describing an issue that poses "so many risks to our constitution, so many risk to the union" as "simply a matter of procedure".

He says using standing orders to make a "huge" constitutional change is a "terrible setting of precedent".

House of Lords
Parliament

Lord Forsyth describes a particular anomaly that he believes will emerge as a result of the EVEL proposals.

He envisions a situation where his local MP, the SNP member for Sterling, will not be allowed to vote on matters that he, Lord Forsyth, as an unelected member of the House of Lords, will be.

"That makes me feel uncomfortable" he admits "I think my former constituents who went to the polls to get me out might feel a sense of grievance." 

House of Lords
Parliament

When Lord Forsyth of Drumlean gets up to speak he seems a little out of spirits:

"I'm running out of new things to say. I'm also coming to the conclusion that it doesn't matter a damn what I say. It doesn't matter a damn what this house does. It's just going to be ignored" 

Nevertheless he continues, accusing the government of resembling "an uber driver without a sat nav".

House of Lords
Parliament

Crossbencher Lord Brown of Eaton-Under-Heywood is next to speak. He points out that not only was the principle of EVEL a manifesto commitment but it also commands widespread public support.

He expresses support for the proposals too but only if "it is implemented in an appropriate way and that surely must be through primary legislation after full debate in both houses and not merely by rule changes in the House of Commons."

House of Commons
Parliament

That concludes business in the House of Commons for today.

MPs' day tomorrow kicks off at 09:30 BST with culture, media and sport questions.

There will be the weekly statement on forthcoming business by the leader of the House.

Then the debate on English votes for English laws - which peers are debating tonight - reaches the Commons.

House of Lords
Parliament

Labour's Lord Reid has "grave concerns" about the government's approach.

He accuses the government of rushing "when there is no need to do so".

Rushing, he warns, will lead to flawed legislation which will produce grievances where none existed.

House of Lords
Parliament

Lord Butler of Brockwell attacks the government for not replying to the request from the House of Lords for a joint committee as a "gross discourtesy".

He continues: "Not for 104 years has the government preceded without taking any notice of a proposal like this from the House of Lords."

"Why," he demands, "is the government treating your lordships' House with such disregard?"

House of Commons
Parliament

House of Lords
Parliament

Liberal Democrat Lord Tyler says the current proposals "don't rise to the challenge".

He predicts that the proposals will satisfy nobody and will be attacked as "weak and weedy".

House of Commons
Parliament

MPs loudly disagree on the motion to appoint members of the human rights committee. This means there will be a vote - but it is deferred until next Wednesday.

The Conservative MP for the Vale of Clwyd, James Davies, makes the opening speech in the final item of business today: an adjournment debate on road and rail infrastructure in North Wales.

House of Lords
Parliament

Conservative Lord Forsyth of Drumlean intervenes to ask what would happen if a Labour government relied on Scottish MPs for its majority but did not have a majority in England.

"In effect there would be a veto from English MPs where they didn't have a majority in the country as a whole," he says.

That, he argues, would "drive a horse and coaches" through the whole system. 

House of Lords
Parliament

Shadow leader of the Lords Baroness Smith of Basildon expresses anger that Baroness Stowell "appears to be ignoring the will of this House".

She recalls that, when peers debated the issue before the summer recess, a majority of 181 voted in favour of a joint committee to examine the issues yet the government has not provided the House of Lords with a response to that request.

Leader of the House Baroness Stowell responds that she was very clear during the debate that the government did not support the setting up of a joint committee.

She acknowledges that "there is no perfect solution" but that "delivering fairness" is "at the heart" of the government's proposals.

House of Commons
Parliament

Shadow deputy leader of the House Melanie Onn urges "no delay to establishing" the Joint Committee on Human Rights.

House of Commons
Parliament

Conservative MP Christopher Chope calls on MPs to pass the motion appointing members to the human rights committee - as the committee cannot function if they do not.

He thanks the SNP for "ensuring we have a debate on this".

House of Lords
Parliament

The government's proposals would require the Commons Speaker to decide which parts of the bill apply to England or to England and Wales only.

"England-only" bills would be considered only by English MPs at committee stage, after which the bill would progress as usual.

For bills containing English or English and Welsh provisions a grand committee would be established, consisting of MPs from the relevant nations who would have the power to veto such clauses.

The legislative process in the House of Lords would be unchanged.